A Little Bible Lesson

2. No, you didn't say Christians don't see the good in the world. The Happy Heathen did make some noises to the effect though, which was what I was responding to above.

Karma, my point was that it's pretty darn presumptuous of you to state that you pity atheists who must, by definition, be hopeless, lonely, and unhappy.

And yes, there are lots of happy, optimistic Christians out there who see plenty of good in this world. However, am I wrong or aren't two major tenets of Christianity:

1) This world is but a mere shadow of Heaven.

2) Humankind is so inherently bad that we deserve God's wrath and Jesus had to die a slow and painful death for our sins.

To me, these 2 things minimize just how amazing and wonderful this world is and make for a very negative view of humanity. Thus atheism makes me all the more *positive* and *hopeful*.

As for the Stephen King quote? *shrugs* I don't agree with it. I don't understand how it's "irrational" to believe goodness can exist without God.

And He's not "MY" God, God belongs to everyone, even people who don't believe the way I do.

When I said "your" God I meant to specify the biblical God. There are other versions of God I honestly don't find disturbing the way I do the Judeo-Christian God.

Why do I find him disturbing? Because he does all kinds of horrible things in the bible, and yet bible believers insist he's great and loving and merciful.

I'm sorry, but this seems a lot like an abusive relationship. Would you stay with a boyfriend who played mind games with you and put you throught the trials of Job just to test your love and faithfulness? Would you stay with a guy who threatens to roast you for eternity if you ever break up with him? I sincerely hope not.

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Originally posted by KarmaIronic:

I feel truly sorry for Atheists. It must be a very lonely life with no one to count on, and no hope for a better tomorrow. [img]frown.gif[/img]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, what? What makes you think we have "no hope for a better tomorrow"?
I see what you mean, I guess. I used to feel more or less the same way. But when I started warming up to the idea, realizing it made so much more sense, it didn't seem so hopeless. I mean, to me, there's no afterlife. So what? Isn't what I've got good enough? There's no big man watching over me. Well, if that's true, I'm still doing just fine, aren't I?

<< Karma, my point was that it's pretty darn presumptuous of you to state that you pity atheists who must, by definition, be hopeless, lonely, and unhappy. >>

Well, that's how I feel. And that opinion is not based on the Bible or what Christians say, this is my own observation of being around athesists. They seem to be very negative, angry, unhappy people.

<< 1) This world is but a mere shadow of Heaven. >>

Uh, Catholics believe that Heaven exsists, but we cannot know the full glory of it in this life and must do good acts in this life to make this earth better. But we also believe that very few people actually go to **** . The vast majority go to purgatory to pay their penance then join God, Jesus and their families in Heaven.

<< 2) Humankind is so inherently bad that we deserve God's wrath and Jesus had to die a slow and painful death for our sins. >>

We're not inherently bad. In fact I believe we're inherently good, but we often get led astray for one reason or another and commit evil. Again, Catholics do not go around saying we deserve God's wrath. And if you watch "The Passion of the Christ" and see the suffering Jesus went through, it's amazing. Can you think of another God in mythology that suffered so greatly to save His people?

<<< To me, these 2 things minimize just how amazing and wonderful this world is and make for a very negative view of humanity. Thus atheism makes me all the more *positive* and *hopeful*. >>

And my Catholic faith makes me more positive and hopeful, because I know there is a time to every purpose under Heaven. Because there's a loving God and our Lord Jesus to hold us up when we're weak and scared and miserable. And because God has such great faith in me, He won't give me anything that I can't handle, nor is any of my suffering ever in vain because it's something I need to go through to grow.

<< Why do I find him disturbing? Because he does all kinds of horrible things in the bible, and yet bible believers insist he's great and loving and merciful.>>

The Old Testament is a little scary, but when Jesus came we started following the New Convenant, as stated in the New Testament. And I read this great article in a Catholic group once that addressed this issue. Wish I would've saved it but basically it came down to God was evolving in His own way as He first began to interact with the humanity He had created.

<< I'm sorry, but this seems a lot like an abusive relationship. Would you stay with a boyfriend who played mind games with you and put you throught the trials of Job just to test your love and faithfulness? Would you stay with a guy who threatens to roast you for eternity if you ever break up with him? I sincerely hope not. >>

Heh heh...if a guy were ever to hit me, we're both going to the hospital. I don't see it as abusive, I see it as a parental relationship. I grew up with strict parents, but I'll tell you what, I sure thank them for it today!

Honestly, you have to keep in mind that different denominations follow the Bible and Christianity in different ways. I'm Catholic, so I might view some things different then Tra or Emma. Which is why I would implore you not to judge all Christians under the same banner. I mean, you wouldn't judge all Muslims because of Osama Bin Laden, right? So don't judge all of us by people like Pat Robertson!

<< Sorry, what? What makes you think we have "no hope for a better tomorrow"?
I see what you mean, I guess. I used to feel more or less the same way. But when I started warming up to the idea, realizing it made so much more sense, it didn't seem so hopeless. I mean, to me, there's no afterlife. So what? Isn't what I've got good enough? There's no big man watching over me. Well, if that's true, I'm still doing just fine, aren't I? >>

I think sometimes too much emphasis is put on our belief of an afterlife. Which, btw, is a belief held in most organized religions including Paganism, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. I don't take every step thinking 'Heaven, Heaven, Heaven' and I'm a little annoyed that it keeps being thrown up on the board. Yes I believe that we go on after this life, and I believe that good people and bad people are judged. However, I'm also Catholic so I believe very, very few people actually go to real **** . Personally, I love the Purgatory theory, lol.

But seriously though, I'm a Catholic because it gives me strength and hope. I think I stated it in the post above...but to break it down: I know everything happens for a reason, and I know God and Jesus have my back when things get tough.

We are all sinners and God had to pay the price for us, yes. That doesn't mean man isn't a valuable, wonderful thing or that we are not all Children of God to be loved as such.

I firmly disagree with the "God evolved in His interactions with humanity". The Bible consistantly states that God is unchanging, that He had chosen us from the beginning of the world, and that He even planned for Jesus to save humanity from Genesis onwards. Abraham was promised that through his seed all nations of the world would be blessed (through Christ). So God is Eternal and Unchanging. He has always been fully loving and just like He is now. We may not know why He did some of the things He did, but we do know that it was for perfect good reasons and the world and everyone affected is better off for it.

<< I firmly disagree with the "God evolved in His interactions with humanity". The Bible consistantly states that God is unchanging, that He had chosen us from the beginning of the world, and that He even planned for Jesus to save humanity from Genesis onwards. Abraham was promised that through his seed all nations of the world would be blessed through Christ. So God is Eternal and Unchanging. He has always been fully loving and just like He is now. We may not know why He did some of the things He did, but we do know that it was for perfect good reasons and the world and everyone affected is better off for it. >>

You know, maybe I misunderstood that. I'll have to look that back up tonight, I have the Bible with those articles right on my bedside table. I'll double check and get back to you. However, Catholics do believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but that we need to read it carefully and prayerfully and ask for God's guidance to help us undestand it. Again, Mysteries of Faith, lol

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Originally posted by Tra:
We are all sinners and God had to pay the price for us, yes. That doesn't mean man isn't a valuable, wonderful thing or that we are not all Children of God to be loved as such.

I firmly disagree with the "God evolved in His interactions with humanity". The Bible consistantly states that God is unchanging, that He had chosen us from the beginning of the world, and that He even planned for Jesus to save humanity from Genesis onwards. Abraham was promised that through his seed all nations of the world would be blessed (through Christ). So God is Eternal and Unchanging. He has always been fully loving and just like He is now. We may not know why He did some of the things He did, but we do know that it was for perfect good reasons and the world and everyone affected is better off for it.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*AHEM*
Repost:

Alright then. I'll go look them up.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands who love me and keep my commandments.

Come on. Tell me how that is NOT a contradiction.

The next one:
a generation comes, and a generation goes, but the earth remains for ever.
Ecclesiastes 1:4

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

2 Peter 3:10

Hmm. First no Apocalypse - then Apocalypse!

So Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el, saying "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved."
Genesis 32:30

No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
John 1:18

Well then. NOW if you keep saying there are no contradictions in the bible, it'll prove you're not even reading my posts.

I have replied to the above post in the thread I originally saw it in. Please look there. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by Tra:
I have replied to the above post in the thread I originally saw it in. Please look there. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NO YOU DIDN'T! You said, and I quote, "Put those in context." Well guess what. I did.

Whatcha gonna do.

Oops, sorry, I thought you meant something different. Disregard any and all flamings in the above post. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 04, 2007 02:08 PM: Message edited by: stormchaser ]</font>

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Originally posted by KarmaIronic:
<<< There is no God. There are no devils, no angels, no heaven or h/ell. There is only our natural world and we can choose to make that world a better place by living ethically or make it a worse place by being intolerant, bigoted, irresponsible, and closed-minded. >>>

So, if you believe that where do you turn when the whole world turns upside down on you? What did you do on 9/11? What did you do when the life of someone you loved hung in the balance? Who was there for you when all humans failed you?

I feel truly sorry for Atheists. It must be a very lonely life with no one to count on, and no hope for a better tomorrow. [img]frown.gif[/img]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No it's not. Knowing Atheists mysekf (including Stormchaser) I know that it is not a truly lonely life. Perkaps for someone who loves God as much as you do cannot even picture not having a God, but people are Atheists because they see no truth in God, and are happier as Athiests.

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Originally posted by the happy heathen:
There is no God. There are no devils, no angels, no heaven or h/ell. There is only our natural world and we can choose to make that world a better place by living ethically or make it a worse place by being intolerant, bigoted, irresponsible, and closed-minded.
While you may find that hard to believe, it is the truth, and I am really hoping that you will be accepting of this and open your mind to this, and be willing to really hear the truth, and accept it.

Funny, ain't it? how I can use the exact same words to show you MY truth.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One thing I have to say about this is that I think we make our own religous worlds. Perhaps that wasn't the best way to put it, but what I mean is that you think there is no God. I do. I don't think there is a wrong and right, I think that God is there for those who want him/her/other/nothing and isn't for those who don't. I believe there is a God. No, no I don't have proof. I know it makes no sense, but I feel more comforted that everything we do is meant to happen, and that when we die, there will be something else for us. When I am worried, I talk. Sometimes to my family, and sometimes to no one. That no one is God. I feel comforted after talking. And while I think that the feeling of believing that there is a God is better than any other, it isn't for you. that is fine.

I want two things for this board, that the Asthiests accept that for some people there is a God, and that the thumpers acept that some people don't have a God.

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Originally posted by zozey:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by the happy heathen:
There is no God. There are no devils, no angels, no heaven or h/ell. There is only our natural world and we can choose to make that world a better place by living ethically or make it a worse place by being intolerant, bigoted, irresponsible, and closed-minded.
While you may find that hard to believe, it is the truth, and I am really hoping that you will be accepting of this and open your mind to this, and be willing to really hear the truth, and accept it.


Funny, ain't it? how I can use the exact same words to show you MY truth.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One thing I have to say about this is that I think we make our own religous worlds. Perhaps that wasn't the best way to put it, but what I mean is that you think there is no God. I do. I don't think there is a wrong and right, I think that God is there for those who want him/her/other/nothing and isn't for those who don't. I believe there is a God. No, no I don't have proof. I know it makes no sense, but I feel more comforted that everything we do is meant to happen, and that when we die, there will be something else for us. When I am worried, I talk. Sometimes to my family, and sometimes to no one. That no one is God. I feel comforted after talking. And while I think that the feeling of believing that there is a God is better than any other, it isn't for you. that is fine.

I want two things for this board, that the Asthiests accept that for some people there is a God, and that the thumpers acept that some people don't have a God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]graemlins/star.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/star.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/star.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/star.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/star.gif[/img]

I actually completely agree with you, zozey.

My point in throwing EmmaMuffin's words ("While you may find that hard to believe, it is the truth, and I am really hoping that you will be accepting of this and open your mind to this, and be willing to really hear the truth, and accept it") back at her was to illustrate how boneheaded and arrogant her statement was.

I don't actually believe I have a monopoly on the truth. But I don't believe anyone else does, either.

(And it doesn't matter how many times you say "NYAH NYAH it's the truth cuz God said so and he likes us best!" I'm not going to believe your truth is truer than anyone else's.)

Christianity (and most other religions, for that matter) does nothing for me, personally. But I do accept that some people love it. I truly don't have a problem with people being Christian if that makes them happy. My problem with some Christians, fundamentalists and literal bible readers in particular, is the major proselytizing.

If you have such a problem with "Bible thumpers" why are you here?

Because it amuses me how quickly you crumble when challenged, and I find it encouraging to see how most people--several mainstream Christians among them, incidentally--think you're completely off your rocker. [img]smile.gif[/img]

No one has crumbled when challenged. I have firmly maintained what I've been saying all along.

Yeah... but you refuse to give any proof other than, "If there was no God han nothing else could exist!" So yes, you have stuck to your story, but unfortunatly for you, your story makes no sense and you have given no one a reason to believe you.